Designers and Code
Posted by Kyle Weems on October 14, 2009I wasn’t at An Event Apart: Chicago 2009. But along with other desk jockeys, I followed along via A Feed Apart. One comment that got re-tweeted about seventy million times during the conference was the following quote by one Jeffrey Zeldman:
“Real web designers write code. Always have, always will.”
When I made a comment about the amount of retweets occurring on this post, I got a reply from Molly Holzschlag (who I respect, but am incapable of pronouncing the last name of):
When two people who helped define the industry as it is today have a difference of opinion, I’m left on the sidelines wondering which to agree with. One the one hand, I agree with the concept that design needs to occur more in the browser and less in Photoshop, but on the flip side I suspect Molly has some insights that I’m simply not taking into account.
So I’ll throw it to the web at large. What’s your opinion on this topic? Do designers need to start doing more design in (X)HTML and CSS, or are we coders going too far in expecting the to put Photoshop aside in the early design phase?
Tags: Design, jeffrey zeldman, molly holzschlag
I think there needs to be an even understanding between both. I would love to design more in the browser, and probably would if I had some CSS templates set up that would make the initial process easier. Sometimes, though, it’s easier to get the ideas out in Photoshop because we’re used to the process of working in it as well. It always takes time to adapt to something that’s new – you’re the one who’s always telling me that there’s some definitive period of time to set up a new habit. This is another one of those cases. Change isn’t easy, especially when you have to consider re-writing how estimates work for clients as well.
I’m not sure there’s a 100% definitive on this however I would have to say knowing the way to build web sites is fundamental to being able to make good web designs. If you don’t know how to leverage all that the web can do then you’re not really making anything of value, it’s just brochureware.
Now, that being said I don’t know how to code everything myself. I know that certain things are possible so I account for the fact that someone will know how to make it.
So, I guess, instead of saying real web designers will need to write code, I would say that real web designers need to know how to write code and to know what code is capable of doing.
That is a tough one. I, myself, have design experience but primarily work with front-end code in a RoR environment. I do both. All the time. So does our creative director. But what we aren’t responsible for is the back-end architecture. I think that in order for people to work together as a team cohesively they need to understand a little about (mostly) all aspects of the process of building a website (app). That being said, I feel like limiting yourself to one or the other can also be a hinderance. Coding and design are both creative outlets. If you stick your head in the sand and say I’m can only do this one thing and will not explore other ways of doing something then I really think you’re never going to push things.
This is a great question and I really don’t know if there is a right or wrong answer. You could say that a designer that doesn’t know anything about coding isn’t limited by the constraints of the browser but what are they limited by? Typically it’s print. I agree with Zeldman only because I think there’s no reason why someone can’t learn both. They may not be experts at both but it never hurts to know the medium.
Ha ha. I agree with Doug S. That’s basically what I was trying to say
@Doug S – I would say even more importantly, real web designers need to know what code is NOT capable of doing. Don’t know how many times I’ve run into the problem of “Do this.” “Um, we can’t.” “But I already told the client…”.
As Doug said, they need to know how to code.
The problem is that the title “web designer” is so different today than it was 15 years ago.
What is a web designer? Back in the mid 90s it used to be some printer/media designer who put graphics together and threw it in a table; or some programmer who mixed clip-art graphics in his perl code. (slight exaggeration here).
Today, web design is a multi-discipline field. There are people in this field who have specialized concentrations(e.g. ux, usability, front-end dev, graphics design etc).
Personally, I prefer a web designer to be able to do all that. On a bigger team environment, the company may be able to afford to have more specialized individuals, where a designer doesn’t need to code, but simply handing a developer graphic mock-ups. But if I were the owner of a small shop, I hired a pure graphic designer to do a web site, then I’d have to hire another person who can do the code too. That’s costly.
Having technical knowledge only helps to enhance the design. Also, html/js/css is not hard. A web designer who’s well versed in design/code is far more marketable than someone who isn’t.
Just my $0.02.
Code should be our bread and butter, otherwise everything will end up being a McApplication- which is to say that functional creativity will be pushed out by ease-of-posting lolcatz… my guess is that the varied output landscape that is web design will always require a good head for code (not to mention server tweaking, network management and graceful fail-through) just as much as a good eye for design… at least until everyone uses the exact same device
Also, “coding” itself is another murky area. What code? HTML/CSS? that’s not programming, but simply markup. Javascript is probably what most web designers work with. But even then, should they know server side code too? If you create ajax, then you’ll need to learn how the backend works too. That leads to server side scripting. If you want to optimize performance you probably need to know a thing or two about SQL too. Should designers write stored procedures too?
Maybe another question is ask is how far down the coding path a web designer needs to know…
Kyle,
It’s an interesting question, coming on the heals of a very spirited debate over at Bruce Lawson’s blog (http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/xml-on-the-web/) about HTML/XHTML/XML and error handling. On one hand, some folks (like Bruce, and I suspect Molly – but she didn’t weigh in) are arguing that draconian error handling and validation should not restrict ‘authors’ from publishing on the web (which suggests that they will be hand-rolling their code, or using really bad WYSIWYG editors – and that bad WYSIWYG editors are OK), while on the other hand you have folks (like me) that are suggesting that HTML5 is the perfect time to up-the-ante and demand more valid code, since HTML5 is more complex; it delivers more, but you need a better understanding of what is going on to maximize that complexity.
I think that the dividing line is whether or not you are a ‘professional’ web content creator, or simply someone who wishes to use the medium to communicate. If you are the former, then you *MUST* be aware of the code that drives the communication/interaction, whilst if you are simply a “…blogger in Iran or the student in Peru or the schoolkids in Thailand…” then perhaps knowing the code is less important.
Finally, I think that Zeldman used a poor choice of words – if he had tweeted “Real web professionals write code. Always have, always will.” there would be less debate – ‘designer’ being a term usually and colloquially associated to one who creates ‘designs’ – and we all know that the web today is more than just ‘alt=”pretty pictures”‘.
Yes, designers absolutely need to learn how to code. That’s not to the complete exclusion of Photoshop, but you’re not going to get anywhere if you’re relying on WYSIWYG editors like image slicing, Dreamweaver, or other such products.
You have to know what your code says and what it is doing to be successful.
I believe Web Designers should know HTML/CSS well enough to leverage its advantages and to avoid designing something impossible to code.
@Jin, you’ve started down the slippery slope that’s no necessarily there. I wouldn’t expect a Web Designer to know anything about database architecture because they will never need to. Heck, I wouldn’t even expect a Web Designer to know about JavaScript. That’s what Web Developers are for.
Kyle,
I am no expert, being only 18 years old and having just started learning about the web, but i definitely think that awareness and ability to practice web standards-based code is so important to any job on the internet. whether you have had someone else design your site/blog, or you are a web professional(good word choice John Foliot) designing his own website, It’s imperative to know how the web works to truly reach out to your audience. In the same way that all great poets know the power and purpose of the different forms of poetry, web professionals need to know their tools, namely HTML5/XHTML1, CSS, Javascript, PHP, etc. to be able to coherently design websites, and web experiences. Even if you work for as a Journalist for the New York Times, when your boss tells you to write content for the web, it helps if you are savvy about its capabilities. Otherwise your work is seperated from the context of the medium of distribution.
Those being my thoughts, i really have to ask what Molly Holzschlag was thinking when she made her statement. Why is it “a very misguided statement”? Especially with the rise of HTML5, and the opportunity for the modern web professional to take part in forming and being educated about a version of the markup language that could be close to perfect in terms of web standards thinking. Twitter certainly isn’t the medium for lengthy explanations, so i hope the discussion you have inspired here pushes Ms. Holzschlag to publish her full thinking on the subject.
i meant to say:
Why is it “a very misguided statement” to say “real web designers write code”?
Doug G, agreed. But I have seen it happen to web designers I work with. But to be fair, they wanted to explore those areas on their own, not forced. I think that’s why many of us love this field. It’s technology driven and always something new to learn.
I would guess that Zeldman didn’t mean you should be designing with code rather than Photoshop. I think the argument is given that a “Web Designer” can create designs in PS, Illustrator, or the tool of their choice… should they then be able to create the code for that design to appear correctly in browser(s)… and what defines “code”? HTML/CSS? and javascript? yes/no/maybe… PHP,JSP?
A designer that doesn’t know HTML/CSS well shouldn’t have the same title as one who does (I would agree with Z and not call that person a “web” designer). Add javascript and that’s another level. In my current position, I have to know even some jsp/java.
I’ve been looking for what I would call a “good web designer” in Miami for a few weeks (good visual aestetics, able to code HTML/CSS and preferably JS), but I only seem to find people that know PS and Dreamweaver WYSIWYG. It’s frustrating.
Our industry unfortunately doesn’t have easy names for every skillset.
The keyword here is design. there is software design (code) and graphic design (visual) I think web design comes right in the middle of both. As a web designer, I start on paper, and then into photoshop or sketchbook, something on the screen, and then of course there is the need to code it all into a web page. CSS is a tool for that, just like the pencil. Granted, I wish there were more compliant and customizable templates for css, rather than writing from scratch everytime, I believe a web designer needs to know code, otherwise he won’t know his limitations.
I was at AEA 2009 Chicago along with 5 other co-workers. I can say that Andy Clarke’s talk (re: designing in the browser) was considered extremely controversial in our group. The point of view that we had was “Hey, ok, maybe that will work if you are making an online magazine site but what … something else?”
It seemed as if Clarke had a ‘perfect-storm’ project – he had solid background in print/layout, solid design skills, solid CSS/HTML skills, a trusting client, a client with a type of project that was perfect for his skill-set, etc. And now he wants to sell us on the idea in browser-design is the way it should be done, anything else for all possible cases is crap.
Wrong. Clarke’s world view came off as narrow minded to me.
My take away was that projects may require some right-sizing choices to be made up front as to how to approach the design process. Are you making a site that is textual content heavy? Maybe design in the browser as Clarke says. Are you designing a site for a motorcycle manufacturer? Maybe use common Photoshop comp’s for some sections but in-browser design for spec’ tables.
Now our graphic designer DID like the idea of using Firefox to play “what if?” on a work-in-progress marked up page for final site tweaking, so there was a recognition of some cross-pollination needs to occur between graphic designers and markup-coders.
To rephrase Zeldman: Real web (graphic) designers *at the very least understand code*. Always have, always will.
A final comment of the Twitter hive-mind stream: It’s not the total picture. There were points of debate murmured throughout the room that may not have appeared on the Twitter stream.
Perhaps I am just a wearer of many too many hats, but why can’t the designer find out to code if they don’t know how to? If nothing else, if would help them in the communication process between the designer and the coder.
Building a website is like building a house. Their are foundations and building blocks (excuse the pun). They are usually relatively simple to construct, but by knowing those rules you can understand in greater detail the construction.
I agree with Doug S., Trevor Gerzen and John Foliot. A real webdesigner should know how to code. it allows you to make decisions on how and where to use code itself. I don’t consider this it a limit to creativity. On the contraty it helps a lot.
I also wonder about what we would do with accessibility without knowing anything about code…
Year after year i’ve realized the more i know about all the aspects involved the more i am able to suggest solutions. Knowledge produces more understanding and better solutions while collaborating with collegues.
Off course creating a wab page which can be shown by a browser “in some way” is not that difficult; this is why the web is so democratic. Though, real web designers should do more than that.
I agree with the fact there might have been a misunderstanding regarding that statement.
A web designer should know CSS, HTML, Adobe, embeddable media, JS (enough to get by + what JQuery does), typography, how to not step on actual coder’s code, usability, people skills, how to get paid, whether people hiring you are full of crap, and much more.
Re: “code”: If you don’t know version control you shouldn’t be allowed to touch code, period.
Designers, developers and other roles are so much blended today that it is hard to make a clear distinction. Should designers know coding? Or developers Photoshop? It depends on how much you want to diversify your knowledge. I think we shouldn’t generalize things and leave everyone to decide for themselves.
Here’s an interesting read: http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/10/in-defense-of-the-jack-of-all-trades/
My two cents:
I’m agreeing with the general vibe in here that at a minimum, web designers should understand coding. I’ll break it down in saying that if you aren’t capable of HTML, CSS (neither of which are actually coding) and some JS at a minimum, you’re probably in the wrong medium. Back-end stuff gets trickier, and in most shops with more than a few people it’s in my opinion better for you to understand its limitations but not needed for you to actually be a master at whatever code-base you’re using.
A big part of the web, in my opinion, is interactivity. It’s for that reason that I disagree with Jeffrey Schrab’s characterization of Andy’s presentation, and sharply diverge from the process Kevin B laid out. No offense guys, but if you decide how a website looks before you know how it acts, you’re painting the car before you’ve actually built it.
I’ve worked with several solid web designers who don’t understand code. It is possible — if rare — to understand the web without understanding code. I know web designers who don’t know much of anything about markup, CSS, or Javascript, but are incredible when it comes to the design of interactions. Generally speaking, I think web designers who understand code do a better job. But, there are exceptions, and I can name them.
As for designing in the browser: who cares? It’s interesting to discuss process amongst us web designers, but the only thing that really matters is the end product, and I think we can all agree that wonderful end products have been conceived in both Photoshop and Firefox (and probably a bazillion other products, too). I enjoy hearing about people’s processes when it’s presented as “I do this, and it seems to work well for me.” Too often, though, it’s presented as, “I do this, and it’s the right way, and you should be doing it, too.” And although Andy Clarke is a friend and someone I respect immensely, I dare say he usually tends towards the “my way or the highway” approach. The assertion that because something works for you, everyone ought to be doing it, is at best narrow-minded and at worst terribly offensive.
I’ll go along with the ‘the more coding ability the better’ sentiment, but I’m also going to take issue with the ‘HTML/CSS are not coding’ comments. Spare me the programmers’ disdain; what do you think it is, data entry?
HTML and CSS are code, period. People who write HTML and CSS are coders with a highly specialized skillset. What most people mean when they say that HTML and CSS are not code is that they’re not algorithmic (and an additional note: CSS at least incorporates logic to a large degree; a stylesheet can be viewed as something like one gigantic switch() construct…)
Back to the main issue, I’ll agree with the point made above: designers qua designers should understand the limitations of their medium, but this doesn’t have any particular implications about what degree of coding chops they need to possess–in other trades, mechanical designers and engineers are very emphatically not usually machinists or fabricators themselves (i.e. they are not the people who make products of the designs), yet they are nevertheless able to design products that can be machined or fabricated.
Having said that, the best way I know of to become familiar with the limits of HTML/CSS is to learn to write HTML/CSS and learn it well. Thus my waffling
A bit of a Luddites perspective, as I am no web designer but alas I have a perspective and opinion (which is probably horrible wrong).
Every task needs tools, but as technology advances sometimes those tools change. This usually makes the job simply easier to accomplish (a lightweight titanium hammer, compared to your common hefty nailkiller) but other advances drastically change the task at hand making past technology obsolete. Very few people use typewriters today, and when they do it is a matter of preference rather then necessity or practicality.
I am not going to predict that a new technology is going to come along and radically change Wed Design and Development, but I will say that it’s quite possible. Jeffrey Zeldman was probably just trying to make a specific point in the stated quote, but it comes off as a bit close minded and unimaginative. Who knows what new technology will come along some day that will make writing code obsolete. I am sure a painter at some point in history of the world said something like “Real artist’s paint with oils and brushes. Always have, always will.” And Zeldman’s quote will seem just as silly given time.
@Christopher – I don’t think it’s meant as disdain, but typically your average programmer is going to refer to something as “coding” if it involves a language that is, in fact, a programming language. HTML is something I brand “markup”, being a series of tags that hold things, and CSS is “styles”, although I accept the idea that it does operate like a large, mostly-static switch. Snobbery aside, it’s fair to say that HTML and CSS don’t require the same skill set as PHP, ASP.NET or JS.
Which, really, is sort of parallel to the issue, as opposed to the issue itself.
HTML and CSS are code, yes. But they’re not programming.
Key distinction.
Glad to read everyone’s thoughts here on this important conversation. Excuse my randomness in this post, and thank you for the opportunity to sort through these important issues.
What’s your strongest skill? If you are an excellent visual designer and can be teamed up with a very strong front end developer, voila. You have the best of both worlds. In reality, there are very few hybrids out there – Dave Shea, Doug Bowman, Andy Clarke (although this “in the browser” stuff is disconcerting to me as well) and a few others. In the context of relatively small, lowish interactivity Web sites, the “know the HTML/CSS” rule still applies – I have long advocated that truth.
The work of the Web is changing, and I believe for us to evolve, we have to acknowledge that ours is a world where art and science merge in very complex ways. Do we say that front-end engineers/devs should know how to design?
As has been pointed out, do we tell our database and systems administrators how to do their jobs as well?
Do we need to “know it all” or do we need to re-examine the model?
Set aside the heated emotional response I had to that comment for a moment, and let me clarify that knowing as much as we can about every aspect of our world is always going to work in our favor. But clearly one person cannot do all things, and if someone out there is sure they can, please inform me immediately so I can correct myself! As such, it’s becoming clear that we need specialists as well as generalists. *design* as a visual art is a specialty. HTML is a specialty. CSS is as well.
What I think we need to focus on is this shift that is occurring from generalist to specialist, from site to apps, from mildly interactive sites to deeply rich interaction design.
What I meant by misinformed on the brink of 2010 is that Jeffrey’s statement does nothing to address these dramatic shifts that are occurring world-over. I say this from experience, not opinion, very honestly I talk to thousands of designers and developers F2F worldwide as my job. I like to think I’m sensitive to what they are saying to me, and what I am hearing is that change is either embraced, or change is feared.
To not evolve with the Web, to not be willing to let what I believed yesterday fall away to a new idea, is, to me, allowing fear to dominate. As an educator and advocate, I feel I fail if I do not work with people to encourage optimism at the same time as addressing the fact that the way we work today will not be the way we work tomorrow.
If it is, please let me know so I can contact someone to put me out of misery. Do we really want to be using floats in 2 years? Ahem.
So let me pose a few questions, and then people can decide where they personally fall on the side of the various concerns I have about the shift in our industry:
To create rich interaction in HTML5 you need to know JavaScript. Is this a web designer’s role?
To access APIs and create beautiful interaction, it will be necessary to know JavaScript. Many a designer enjoys HTML and CSS, and why discourage exploration and education? But to demand we do everything is simply not practical.
What if IE implements SVG before we’re all dead . . . will designers be expected to author and serve SVG? Or will we have enough visual tools (that’s a joke – we’ve had CSS 2.0 since 1998 and what visual tools do we have?)
What if you’re designing XML documents. Do you as a “designer” need to know how to manage serving XML properly?
If we are demanding that designers become markup and CSS specialists as well as great visual artists, I believe this is a disservice to the modern designer. Let designers design. For the HTML/CSS/JS and /programmers/ out there, it’s to our advantage to learn from them instead of demanding they try and learn what is becoming more and more complex. Web sites are one thing, Rich Web and Web Apps are essentially making us into software engineers.
Do software engineers expect designers to know how to build a browser? Well, I’m here to remind everyone that we are on the brink of change, that the Web is evolutionary, and any statement related to the Web that implies something “always will” is something I cannot wrap my head around. At all.
Maybe I’ve spent too long now with core specs and browser implementations. I’m not saying there’s wrong or right here, because one can never know enough! I am trying, at the end of the ranting, to simply say that our story is much, much bigger than “always”
xoxo,
Molly
Designer’s should know code. They don’t need to be CSS guru’s but understanding enough about how their design’s will be built is fundamental to being able to create a design that is truely optimised for the medium.
Knowing code doesn’t mean you have to throw away Photoshop, in fact as a designer who does a fair amount of coding and programming (if there’s even a distinction) I have started to use Photoshop more as I seem to create more rich interfaces in Photoshop than if I design in the browser.
As a generalist Jack-of-all-trades, I can confirm that we need both generalists and specialists. A specialist is nearly useless at anything except their main field, while a generalist isn’t good enough at everything to do more than mediocre work if left alone.
In highly-specialized groups, a tremendous amount of confusion can wedge itself between the different specialties. Designers will make a mock-up for the developer, who has to make it behave with things the programmer made on the back-end. Then the IA and UX professionals take a look at it, wonder what the heck was going through the designer’s mind (some of which are actually errors from where the developer misunderstood what the designer needed), and have the entire thing redone. Any small error introduced in one step will snowball. A constant stream of double-checking and revision has to take place to get anywhere.
Insert a generalist into the mix, and you’ve got someone who can communicate effectively with most or all of the different specialists. We can translate jargon from one professional to the other, and fix minor errors that crop up after the real hard work has been done. Any manager should be some form of generalist. It’s best if you know enough to effectively communicate with most everyone on your team.
As far as things like designers learning JS: in a proper team, the designer could hand off their html files to the JS developer, who would add the code. Or, the dev would give the designer a list of classes and ids, without needing them to know any scripting.
I do think we’ll see more designers learning javascript and SVG, and we’ll also see more developers learning about UX and IA. The industry is becoming far more glossy and professional, and more is expected from a website.
In order to be cutting edge, we, as designers, have to understand how our design will be effected by the code. To understand that full effect, we have to have a pretty comprehensive understanding of how all code can effect our design. The best way to understand that effect is to actually have some experience in coding. This does not mean that we will be using these things forever — what it means is that designers need to design with the code in mind.
As designers, we’re used to creating with limitations — we have the client’s requirements to consider, the development teams’s capabilities and the scope and production budget of the product we are making. A designer that understands the limitations of HTML, CSS, PHP, Javascript and C++ creates a design that is easier to produce by the development team. I don’t code in PHP, Javascript or any of the languages that require serious logic. But, by coding in HTML and CSS and occasionally dabbling in Javascript, I have an understanding of those object and logic oriented languages that I know my developers are happy I have — it means I’m not wasting time creating interfaces that are just not in scope to our development time or budget and the developers don’t have to break my heart as much as they used to.
This isn’t to say that I would like to see a day when we can design without having to know code, but the regretful fact of the matter is that today we do.
I think the original statement is a little silly. IMHO, Web designers don’t need to know how to develop their designs into living, breathing applications, nor do they really need to know code. Do they need to understand what browsers are capable of rendering? Absolutely. Do they need to be able to make it do that? No. That’s what developers are for.
To me, the statement that “real web designers write code” is kind of like saying “real print designers write their own copy and also run their own presses.” It’s ridiculous.
There does need to be consistent and thorough communication between the designers and the developers to make sure that nothing is being sent out in comps that’s just not possible. That being said, I am a firm believer that very few things are actually impossible on the Web, today, it’s just that some things are more difficult than others. Therefore, I wouldn’t really classify it as “possible” or “impossible,” I would classify it more as “does it make sense and will it be accessible or not?”
The bottom line is, to be a truly outstanding developer, you have to use one side of your brain. To be a truly outstanding designer, you have to use the other half of your brain. There are very few people (are there any?) that can actively and effectively use both sides of their brains. Either you’re analytical or you are artistic. There are, certainly, exceptions to every rule. There are great designers that have also become fantastically talented developers, and there are phenomenal developers that are extremely good at design. However, much more often than not, a good developer will be able to tell (by looking at the original source) when a site was coded by a designer and a good designer will be able to tell (just by looking at the page) when a page or app has been designed by a developer. There are nuances that are always going to be separate between the two worlds.
Therefore, rather than saying “real web designers write code,” I think the statement should have been “real web designers work collaboratively with real web developers.”
Just my two cents, and I don’t know anything anyway.
Will the “real” web designer please step forward?
A real web designer is simply a person that gets paid to do it. If you can create visual designs, meh, OK. If you provide html/css afterwards, good. Is it semantic, accessible, with some JS? awesome.
I’m guessing you won’t be working at Happy Cog if you don’t know code (wonder what Zeldman defines as “code”) and I, for one, wouldn’t hire you either, but maybe others would. Good luck.
I can’t believe Molly posted 15 paragraphs and never told you how to pronounce her last name.
@Jeff – I know, right? Geez.
Seriously, Molly, thanks for taking the time to elaborate your position. It’s really insightful.
@Molly, some food-for-thought, as a sort-of-reply on your SVG bit:
- about SVG (natively) on IE: Chrome Frame and SVG Web help turn “website broken” into “blue E slow”.
- MS attended and sponsored SVG Open.
- the popular-with-designers Inkscape has already improved quite a bit on the coder-friendliness of its SVG output
- svg-edit might soon show up on Wikipedia to edit its huge SVG collection
- SVG is a great opportunity for cooperation between coders and clickers
- Much SVG content is generated
Great insights!
I apologize for missing the most important point, Kyle, Jeff. Shame on me!
Okay, everyone, here’s how you do it. Put your mouth into the shape of an O.
READY?
Now say:
Whole . . . shlag.
Do not say half. Do not say shag. It’s a whole shlag.
Now that we’ve addressed that, please just call me Molly, mols, mol or mollydotcom
@stelt – I just had breakfast here in Prague with my Opera colleague David Storey who filled me in on SVGOpen – it sounds really exciting and I’m very happy to know that Microsoft was in da house. Apparently, they have one of the folks from the old Visio team (which had SVG output years ago). For the day to day design guy and gal, SVG is not an immediate option, but it’s use is, as you suggest, far more widespread than we think. One look at Wikipedia will prove that.
We live in interesting times.
@stelt & Molly – I am planning on digging into SVG in the near future because it’s so damn sexy.
to give a comment on the name in question: Holzschlag.
Molly, I am not sure how deep your German (or swiss or austrian!?!) roots go, but in germany you would pronounce your name more like “wholS shlag”, with a sharp “s” on the “wholS” ^-^
(that said from a german ^-^)
on the other issue: I believe for designers its good to understand that front-end devs / programmers will take their work to reality and that programmers / coders will need to remember that a good design, a good ui is also functional in an asthetic sense.
I want to understand (wishful thinking ^-^) as to say: “Real web designers write MARKUP. Always have, always will.”
My personal approach is:
1. get to understand what kind of site will come –> code / interactivity planning
2. get a sketch on paper –> design planning
3. get the structure it into code and paralell design in PS —> for me that evolves together. of cause this also depends on the freedom given by the contractor.
that does not necessarily make me a good designer / coder, but I its a working approach to work alone or in a team.
first off i’d like to thank Molly for expanding on her comment. it really helps me understand the issue better. and having read that long dissertation i’d like to argue a different point, generalists vs. specialists. although i fear this is outside the context of the argument, i’d like to bring that point up.
let me provide a viewpoint, which i am willing to accept could be absolutely narrow-minded and wrong. i think that to a certain point everyone should be a generalist. to support i am going to pull a quote from a very abstract source, “Autobiography of a Yogi”, a “spiritual classic”. the reason i pull in this source is as an example of the thought behind why one should adopt generalism to a certain degree. it is a quote from a speech made at the dedication ceremony of Sir Jagadis Chandra Bose’s science institute in India.
“‘I dedicate today this Institute as not merely a laboratory but a temple.’ His reverent solemnity stole like an unseen cloak over the crowded auditorium. ‘In the pursuit of my investigations I was unconsciously led into the border region of physics and physiology. To my amazement, I found boundary lines vanishing and points of contact emerging, between the realms of the living and the non-living. Inorganic matter was perceived as anything but inert; it was athrill under the action of multitudinous forces. A universal reaction seemed to bring metal, plant, and animal under a common law. They all exhibited essentially the same phenomena of fatigue and depression, with possibilities of recovery and exaltation, as well as the permanent unresponsiveness associated with death. Filled with awe at this stupendous generalization, it was with great hope that i announced my results before the Royal Society–results demonstrated by experiments. But the physiologists present advised me to confine myself to investigations in physics, in which my success had been assured, rather than to encroach on their preserves. I had unwittingly strayed into the domain of an unfamiliar caste system and had offended its etiquette.’ pg. 66
that is a rather long quote, but i’d like to pull some very important points out of it, and close this unduly long response. one discipline of any task, say design in website development firm, cannot exist but for the others. with understanding, and in-depth understanding at that, of the interconnected fields, any person can more successfully accomplish his task. i point out Isaac Newton, long considered father of modern physics, spent more time on interpreting the bible than on physics. Da Vinci, the jack-of-all-trades, was far ahead of his time dreaming up inventions that would not come to the forefront for another 400 years. it is then, not fair certainly to expect any desginer or developer to understand the other’s trade. but for one who is pushing himself forward as “the best” for a task, for one who is trying to barter his skills, is it fair for him to deceive his customer when he has not gone the extra mile to educate himself or herself? if there is more you can do to become better at what you do, then why not pursue it… this is the only point i am trying to make. we all long for happy lives, filled with work that we love and enjoy; if we will not work to earn that right can we ever achieve the perfection of our childhood dreams?
to close i do not expect any designer to know code, or any developer to know design. but i do expect that a designer or developer who wants to improve will realize the contact points between the two fields and educate themselves. there are hundreds of sites willing to help teach web development, who freely share the code that makes them good at what they do. there are hundreds of sites out there that are willing and whose mission it is to teach graphic design, typographic design, etc. to the wave of web developers. on the brink of 2010, why not avail ourselves of those resources?
ps never meant to sound angry in my earlier comment directed towards molly, i sincerely apologize for that. only respect and admiration from my side for your work
@Kyle, Yes! Dig dig dig! Because if you did have a half-decent tool, making your comics in SVG would give you some accessibility wins and some ways of making more, as well as because it is sexy. And even a crappy SVG tool might work for you
What is a designer? Where do they work? Are they the person who decides everything about the cool new application, or just the person who makes the icons, or somewhere in between?
Everyone should know everything. But they don’t, and we muddle along anyway. The next best is to know the things that help us to do a good job (and sometimes they are technical, and sometimes they are other people, and often they are our own limitations).
So given the amazing trawl, I’d say the comment is most successful as bait (studying the ends to determine the nature of the means makes more sense after a doblete).